[23:28] (@ball_cock): dont u think the US presidential election has turned into a total farse!!!
[23:28] (@pobice): Yeap
[23:29] (@pobice): The margin or error for the thing is greater the the no of votes seperating em
[23:29] (+TSB): Yup apparently they lost a load of votes and the ballot paper was too confusing for the floridans so the green party bloke got a load of votes by accident
[23:29] (@ball_cock): I want Gore 2 win so that probably means he wont now just bcos i've said that, but as a devowed tory I'm sure u want Bush to win right rob?
[23:29] (@pobice): Nope
[23:29] (@pobice): He an idot
[23:29] (@ball_cock): u want gore?
[23:29] (@ball_cock): i kno that
[23:30] (@pobice): Plus he doesn't have eougth foregin affair experenice
[23:30] (@pobice): No, but his better than bush
[23:30] (@pobice): Got 914 mp3s
[23:30] (+TSB): Like McCrae said Gore is the lesser of two incompetents
[23:31] (@pobice): End Evil
[23:31] (@pobice): What do u think of the mini budget then?
[23:31] (@ball_cock): but then again what have we 2 worry about, they may have nuclear weapons, but then so did Russia under yeltsin for all thopse years and we're still alive to tell the rtale so I'm sure neither bush or gore can be quite that bad
[23:31] (@ball_cock): well
[23:31] (@ball_cock): i think its along the right lines
[23:32] (@ball_cock): i dont think theres much more he could have done
[23:32] (@pobice): Its a scam though
[23:32] (+TSB): What does the president really do anyway? All Clinton did was swan around with birds and go around having his picture taken
[23:32] (@pobice): This green fules, not all that green cost 5p more than normall fulel any way, so its still 1p more expensive
[23:32] (@ball_cock): if he'd have caved in, apart from the economic implications, he'd have been accused of heeding to aggressive tactics, and that would make him even more unpopular
[23:33] (@pobice): Yeah, but he could have made more tax incentives for switching to a green fuel like lpg
[23:33] (@pobice): Which he has not given any money to helping
[23:33] (+TSB): Less sulphur stuff
[23:33] (@pobice): Yeah but its 1p more expensive still with his cuts that
[23:33] (@ball_cock): yes but the idea is that more people will buy it so then it will go down in price over the next year, dont 4get the changes announced 2day doint come into force until the real budget next year
[23:33] (@pobice): Plus Sulphurs not a green house gas anyway
[23:34] (@ball_cock): maybe not but it causes acid rain
[23:34] (+TSB): It isn't exactly nice though is it?
[23:34] (@pobice): Yeah, but then he also said he fronzen fuel tax, which he wouldn't have actually hired it up any more anyway
[23:34] (@ball_cock): plus he's dont a lot for pensioners
[23:35] (@pobice): Yeah but he still giving em the winter fuel allowence, which they have said they rather have it spreead out throughotu the year
[23:36] (@pobice): Also doing that waste money in extra administartion
[23:36] (@pobice): Which could have used somewhere else
[23:37] (@ball_cock): yes but giving it in winter does ensure that it us spent on what its meant for and not on expensive holidays etc, u cant do one thing for some and a different thing for others, and for some if they got it throughout the year they'd waste it away, then still freeze in winter. for those who want it all year round they can still get it then just have it in the bank and tap off it throughout the year if they really want 2 do it like that
[23:37] (@pobice): Still thunk he should have tried to premote proper green fuels than the low sulphur stuff though
[23:37] (@ball_cock): they're even earning interest on it as well that way
[23:38] (@ball_cock): green fules... like what
[23:38] (@pobice): lpg
[23:38] (@pobice): etc
[23:38] (@ball_cock): what?
[23:38] (@pobice): liquid petroloum gas
[23:38] (@pobice): Its much cleaner than petrol
[23:38] (@pobice): And much cheaper to run
[23:38] (@pobice): But need premoting to get more cars running on it
[23:39] (@ball_cock): yes but wnat r the chances of everyone having their engines converted 2 that?
[23:39] (+TSB): can't you get alcohol stuff?
[23:39] (@pobice): Yes but the whole point of petrol tax is to do that
[23:39] (@ball_cock): anyway how can he promote it.
[23:39] (+TSB): electric cars
[23:40] (@pobice): Well offer tax relif on conversion of cars
[23:40] (@pobice): Increase the money given to you for doing so
[23:40] (@ball_cock): u could say he has because tax on norml petrol, even the silphur free stuff, is still higher than most other countries, whereas lpg isnt taxed half as much
[23:41] (@pobice): Yes but then the whole point of the Fuel tax is to encourage us to use greener fuels
[23:41] (@pobice): So he shouuld also use some off this money to speed up the process
[23:42] (@ball_cock): its down 2 oil companies if they want 2 sell the stuff, if its not available then no-one will buy the cars that run on it, so there's no demand for it, so oil companies will b less willing 2 invest in it, so it stays unavailable, its a vicious circle, how gan the chancellor break that?
[23:42] (@pobice): But it is avalable
[23:42] (@ball_cock): well then the oil companies dfo a terribvle job advertising it
[23:43] (@pobice): So does the government
[23:43] (@pobice): Also they do advertise it but no one pays atention to it
[23:43] (@ball_cock): and in any case, whats the poiint propoting this stuff, its still from oil which is going to run out very soon, thats the major problem with petrol. the fact thet lpg happnes 2 b marginally cleaner in neither here nor there, its still oil and it will still run oyt soon so y not invest in REAL alternatives to oil
[23:44] (+TSB): Hydrogen watery thing engines
[23:44] (@ball_cock): well if noone pays attention its not the fault of the government or the oil compaines so theres nothing anyone can do about it
[23:44] (@ball_cock): ur argiung with urself as far as I can see
[23:45] (@ball_cock): and if ur thinking thats down to the oil companies, then what does BP stand for? (as in BP chemicals)
[23:45] (@pobice): Well it more the governments fault
[23:45] (@ball_cock): y?
[23:46] (@ball_cock): copmpanies are investing. it takes time tho, research cant b dopne overnight
[23:46] (+TSB): And esso are evil there suing frosties over tony the tiger
[23:46] (@ball_cock): go on, what does BP stand for?
[23:46] (@pobice): As the oil compainies invest money in this as there more of it about the normall fuel now
[23:46] (@pobice): British Petroleum
[23:46] (@ball_cock): wrong im afraid
[23:46] (@ball_cock): its 'beyond petrolium'
[23:46] (@pobice): Plus they allreay are cars running on the stuff
[23:46] (+TSB): Now you know britsh is a dirty word
[23:47] (@ball_cock): I think thats hows they are thinking ahead
[23:47] (@ball_cock): shows even
[23:48] (@pobice): Also there are eletric/petrol hybrid cars
[23:48] (@pobice): Yes the government offer no (or little) incentives to get the,
[23:49] (@ball_cock): and thats just one example. its a very competative market, bp are patenting their ideas all the time so its not as if others dont know what tyhety're up 2. I have no doubt that Esso, Shell, Texaco and the other big oil companies are conducting similar research into alternatibves to oil
[23:49] (@pobice): They could do that
[23:51] (@pobice): Well to be honest the governments plan is just a token jester, which goes against everything they were saying about the fuel price thing
[23:51] (@ball_cock): how can u say the government offers no incentives... what the hell is fuel tax? if esso or bp came u[ with a clean fule made from, sat, vegetable oil. there's no tax on that stuiff is there, they'd make billions out of that as a result as everyone switched to it. same with elecrtic cars, and hybrids. there's no huge taxes on electricity. if someone made a decent electric car, and advertised it well enough so people buy it (its
[23:51] (+TSB): Maybe they already have and are hoding it back as it's cheaper and easier than oil, so they leach as much money as they can out of oil as there evil
[23:51] (@ball_cock): not the job of the gvt to advertise company's products) then again they'd make billions
[23:53] (@pobice): Well the basic problem is the new cars cost more, and people can't see of the intail cost
[23:53] (+TSB): Might create buyers-which creates jobs-means more tax for government-lower unemployment- boosting economy etc
[23:53] (@pobice): And the oil companies are spending money on constantly changing the fuel type in the pums
[23:54] (@ball_cock): dont 4get tho tom that if more jobs created making new types of car, some will have 2 go as old types of car go out of production, same with new fules. no new jobs will be created overall
[23:54] (+TSB): Ohhhh my plan spoiled
[23:54] (+TSB): THe others can make the cup holders
[23:55] (+TSB): Goodbye
[23:55] (@pobice): bye
[23:55] (+TSB): say bye
[23:55] (@ball_cock): The new cars may cost more but if the companies invested more in advertising they'd b able 2 get them 2 sell. theres only a certain amount thr government can do. anyway I notice u seem 2 have conceeded the fact that high fulel taxes are a good thing?
[23:56] (@pobice): Well I still think they should have spent more on the transport sector than they have done
[23:57] (@ball_cock): form what i can tell u seem 2 b thinking the gvt should b paying people to have these cars (reliable and adequate models of which still havent hit the market, i may add)
[23:57] (@pobice): Yes they have
[23:57] (@pobice): You can buy these today if you wanted
[23:58] (@ball_cock): doesnt matter how expensive a bloody electric car is, u cant tell me u can get one as powerful as a standard 1.8l ford mondeo, for example. doesnt matter how much u subsidise them, if the prouct is not as good as what its meant 2 replace then people simply will not buy it
[23:59] (@pobice): The product is better for city travl
[23:59] (@pobice): Which is a ig cause of popultion in this country
[23:59] (@ball_cock): the majority of people travelling within cities use public transport these days
[23:59] (@pobice): Plus there are hybrids which are as powerfull and sometimes more powerfull
[00:00] (@pobice): Yes but there are still a lot of people using cars
[00:00] (@ball_cock): its only those who have 2 travel in from ouytside, on large trunk roads, where a poxy littkw electruc car would have no chance
[00:00] (@pobice): YEs well thats where hybrids come in
[00:00] (@ball_cock): the hybrids dont solve the peoblem of fuel running uot, they may use less but then will that just give people a false sense of security and cause them 2 use their cars more?
[00:01] (@ball_cock): and even if they dont the fuel will still run out.
[00:01] (@pobice): Well a big turn f is the fact the the roads are so crowded
[00:01] (@pobice): Not the prce of travel
[00:02] (@ball_cock): even if hybrids are the short term answer, there arent exactly a decent range about, those there are are all Nissan Micra sized and of a quality resemblant of a low spec family saloon
[00:02] (@pobice): They normall family salon sized actually
[00:03] (@pobice): And there not small cars
[00:03] (@ball_cock): all the even slightly well off businessman who is used to driving a BMW, an alfa or an audi, for exanple, will never go for any of the curreent electric cars
00:08] (@ball_cock): Also, most people who drive in cities, the group u want 2 convert to electric cars, drive company vehicles, not their own. These companies have special deals with the car companies to secure the deal for the cars, as well as very good service policies and this level of service only comes from years and years deakling with these car companies. they're never going to go for electric cars, for these reasons as well as the fact the
[00:09] (@ball_cock): product simply is not as good
[00:09] (@ball_cock): ny uncle drives a 2.8l BMW coupe and he's not exactly stinking rich
[00:09] (@ball_cock): : but its bloody fast, and u cant tell me there's an electric car available with similar quality interior, as powerful, and also with the peace of mind of all the BMW servicing warrenties etc behind it.
[00:09] (@ball_cock): thats a company car
[00:10] (@pobice): Hybrid technology does go as fast
[00:10] (@ball_cock): and the majority of people driving in cities are in the same position
[00:11] (@pobice): Well thats why we need the government to offer incetives
[00:11] (@ball_cock): you can get a 1.2 ltre ford fiesta over a hundred miles an hour, but thats in like 10 mins, down hill and with a tail wind. doesnt make the car powerful
[00:11] (@pobice): Yes but hybrid cars ain't small
[00:12] (@pobice): They are usually the bigger ars, as they offer greater fuel savings there
[00:12] (@ball_cock): and the hybrid cars dont carry the same peace of mind eiother that a well established big make would suppl
[00:12] (@ball_cock): y
[00:12] (@ball_cock): the cpmpanies dont pay for the fuel so they dont care about that
[00:13] (@ball_cock): and electric cars dont carry the prestige of the well esdtablished 'executive' car manufactuirers like Alfa, BMW, Audi, etc
[00:13] (@ball_cock): so companies are less likely 2 go 4 them
[00:14] (@ball_cock): y take a gamble when u can stick with the security iu[ce had for years and years
[00:14] (@pobice): But thats why the government need to offer incentives, so more people will go for them
[00:14] (@pobice): Yes but then you take a gamble by going for the next years modle don't they?
[00:16] (@ball_cock): the incentives would have 2 b huge, too small, or to too few people, and they'll have no effect. if u think of the government paying, say £2000 to every household in Britain as an incentive to change to an electric car, I think thats the kind of investmnt they'd need, then thats a massive chunk of govermnent income gone. where dopes the cash come from then to pay fro schools and stuff. dont 4get theres only the same amount of money
[00:16] (@ball_cock): coming into the treasury as there's always been (allowing for inflation)
[00:17] (@ball_cock): past governments have also struggled to balance the books and keep the economy healthy
[00:19] (@pobice): The luxurious long wheelbase BMW 7 Series is powered by the familiar, silken smooth 5.4 litre twelve cylinder engine but instead of being powered by petrol, the tank holds supercooled hydrogen which can be generated from water using solar energy. A zero emissions fuel which produces zero emissions from the tailpipe.
[00:19] (@pobice): A dream …. a fantasy? No - a reality. On May 11, 2000 BMW presented the first series production hydrogen car in Berlin. A number of these 750hL models were used as shuttles during the Expo